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 PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind

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MMkgc

MMkgc


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PostSubject: PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind   PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind EmptyMon Oct 22, 2007 2:10 pm

This past weeks parsha brought up some interesting subjects, the main
one if the angels of G-d bred with the daughters of men and created a
super- human race of sorts that is mentioned through out the bible.

Could angels actually have sex with humans?
Some questions regarding this were posed to me and I shall answer them here.
Quote :
Gen 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. (This is the institution of marriage)
This can also be read to mean 'be of the same kind' of flesh.

Just A note from Rashi on the one flesh issue:
Rashi explains that the phrase “one flesh” is to be interpreted as referring
to the child of the husband and wife. In the flesh of the child the
husband and wife become one.As you can see they are different, but it
presents two other different ways of looking at the one flesh.

The next scriptures presented:


Quote :
Matt
22:25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had
married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his
brother:26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.27
And last of all the woman died also.28 Therefore in the resurrection
whose wife shall she be of the seven?for they all had her.
29 Jesus
answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor
the power of God.30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are
given in marriage,but are as the angels of God in heaven.
I think the key words here are “in the resurrection” and ‘as the angels in heaven’ But they have no part in the resurrection as Isaiah is clear on with the proper translation

Isaiah 26:13-14 O Lord our God, other Lords beside Thee have had dominion
over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14 They are dead ( Rephaim) , they shall not live; they are deceased ( Rephaim) , they shall not rise: therefore hast Thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
(KJV)

And who were these other lords that had dominion over us?

Next Scripture
Quote :

Mark 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and
dying left no seed.21 And the second took her, and died, neither left
he any seed: and the third likewise. 22 And the seven had her, and left
no seed: last of all the woman died also. 23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because
ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Quote :

Luke 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world
marry,and are given in marriage:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead,neither marry, nor are given in marriage:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
I've highlighted the important words here, the key words here are ‘accounted worthy’ they will not be accounted worthy, nor are they part of the resurrection , so they can’t be compared. ( see verse from Isaiah I gave above)

Next scripture
Quote :
Matt 19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which
made them at the beginning made them male and female,5 And said, For this
cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his
wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
See above
Quote :
To the issue of just having sex without being married
Quote :
Cor 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body?for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
Yes, two humans, as G-d made woman from man,however these would not be of the same flesh, they would be a mixture.
Quote :
The question is how can Angels which do not have bodies of flesh and blood become one flesh with mankind which does have flesh and blood?

They can have bodies, if not, why was Lot so protective of the two that
came to him in Sodom when the men of the city wanted to have him send
them out so they could have sex with them? They had a male form didn’t
they? else the homosexuals of the town wouldn’t have desired them.
Also we have the men in the tomb of Yeshua, angels described as men, looking like men, seen by men, yet were messengers, angels of G-d.



In Jude 1, we see him telling the believers he is writing to, that those in Sodom and Amora followed a pattern like theirs ( those who left their first estate), committing sexual sins and perversions. So the angels mentioned in verse 6 are who committed sexual sins and perversions that the sodomites followed similarly ( not exactly) after them.


As well the writer of Hebrews says: "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares" (Heb.13:1).

If it can hold that others have entertained angels, unaware, and I think
that refers to Abraham, and Lot who both saw these two angels, who
looked like and were described as men, who ate with Abraham and Lot.
These we know were messengers from G-d, but if the obedient angels can
have this visible male body, why can’t the fallen angels as well?


To be continued...........
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MMkgc

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PostSubject: Re: PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind   PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind EmptyMon Oct 22, 2007 2:19 pm

Quote :
For me it is an impossibility for angels to mate with humans.
I understand, but there are scriptures that show that this is what happened, and we can deduce why, to corrupt the human race to keep the promised Messiah from coming ( Gen 3:15).

Outside of the scripture referrences the book of Jubilees gives insight to this.
Quote :
"And he [Enoch] wrote everything, and bore witness to the Watchers, the ones who sinned with the daughters of men because they began to mingle themselves with the daughters of men so that they might be polluted. And Enoch bore witness against all of them" (Jubilees 4:22)."And when the children of men began to multiply on the surface of the earth and daughters were born to them, that the angels of the L-RD saw in a certain year of that Jubilee that they were good to look at. And they took wives for themselves from all of those whom they chose. And they bore children for them, and they were the giants. And injustice increased upon the earth, and all flesh corrupted its way; man and cattle and beasts and birds and everything which walks on the earth. And they all corrupted their way and their ordinances, and they began to eat one another. And injustice grew upon the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all mankind was thus continually evil.

"And the L-RD saw the earth, and behold it was corrupted and all flesh had corrupted its order and all who were on the earth had done every sort of evil in his sight. . . And against his angels whom he had sent to the earth he was very angry. He commanded that they be uprooted from all their dominion. And he told us to bind them in the depths of the earth, and behold, they are bound in the midst of them, and they are isolated. And against their children a word went forth from before his presence so that he might smite them with the sword and remove them from under heaven. And he sent his sword among them so that each one might kill his fellow and they began to kill one another until they all fell on the sword and they were wiped out from the earth. And their parents also watched. And subsequently they were bound in the depths of the earth forever, until the day of great judgment in order for judgment to be executed upon all of those who corrupted their ways and their deeds before the LORD. And he wiped out every one from their places and not one of them remained whom he did not judge according to all his wickedness" (Jubilees 5:1-11).
This jives with Jude 1 and also In the second letter of Kefa, we read, "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Greek, Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly" (I Pet.2:4-5).

The angels that sinned and the old world and Noah are all mentioned here,
it would be obtuse to think that they aren’t related. Kefa makes it plain and simple, the angels that sinned. When you compare that to Genesis 6 and add it to the Isaiah passage, and Jude 1, you can see it is talking about the same event. Then the extra-biblical writings like the Jubilee passage above and Josephus below, tell the same story.


From Antiquities of the Jews
Quote :
Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers, and did neither pay those honors to God which were appointed them, nor had they any concern to do justice towards men. But for what degree of zeal they had formerly shewn for virtue,they now shewed by their actions a double degree of wickedness, whereby they made God to be their enemy; for MANY ANGELS OF GOD accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength, for the tradition is that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and, being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better; -- but, seeing that they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land" (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, I,3,1).
It is interesting too that Kefa’s first letter speaks of these same angels and how Yeshua went to where they are held and preached to them, while Noah was building the ark! To not believe this could happen and did happen would be to go against the writings of Isaiah, Moshe, Kefa, Judah, Josephus, the writer of the book of Jubilees, and others..

Were all these men wrong in what they wrote? They are diverse and spread out through many years. Judah or Jude, may well be the brother of our L-RD
Yeshua, and I don't think he would make this up or lead others astray, in fact he speaks very authoritively, as one who has devulged knowledge of import.
That is a lot to dispute, I can’t come up with anything, nor have been ableto so must accept what the Bible tells us, the extra biblical works only add credence but it is not necessary. There is also supporting evidence in the pseudopigraphia
Quote :
To teach otherwise seems contrary to Yeshua's teachings.
What teaching would those be? The only teachings you are presenting is what Yeshua said in regard to the resurrection, but as I’ve shown, they have no part in it, so its really isn’t a contradiction. Isaiah speaks of
certain ones that will not be resurrected ( they will not rise) , yet all men are to be resurrected (Dan. 12:2; Jn. 5:28-29; Acts 23:6-8; 24:15; 1Cor. 15:22; Rev. 20:4-6,13
Quote :
Can you show us where Yeshua teaches otherwise?
I think I have answered the best I can for right now. Yeshua does not preach against this, you must read his words carefully, as I pointed out above.

Did you know that angels are mentioned many, many times in the new
covenant? Paul speaks of them a lot and so do many of the other apostles.

For example:

In Romans 8, Paul teaches, that angels shall not be able to separate us from the love of G-d. He can not be talking of obedient angels, only the disobedient ones.

In 1 Cor 6:3 Paul tells us we shall judge angels, again not the obedient, but the disobedient.

In Chapter 11, he tells the woman to keep power of her mind, by covering
her hair , because of the angels, and because the woman was created for
a man.
Hebrews 1:6 has an intriguing passage: ‘And again, when he bringeth in thefirst begotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of G-d worship him.‘ Why say , angels of G-d? why not just angels? Because those fallen would not worship him, yet they knew who he was and also that he would be the one to punish them, that is why they asked to go into the herd of swine in Luke 8 We must remember the angels were created in an immortal state. Their habitation was heaven. But they choose to throw that away. They had the best of the best, yet choose to go ‘slumming’ on earth and wanted what corruptible flesh and blood had. What a kick in the face to HaShem!
Quote :
Shalom in Yeshua,

Shalom!

Just a few other things that come to mind.

The L-RD gave a great many mitzvot because of this unholy mixing of creations. There is much talk about seeds, and them not being mixed. It is shown that all his creatures have seed in them. Since we aren’t given the creation story of the angels, we don’t have this same description, but we do of other things. Herbs, fruit trees, etc and there is mention of the seed of a woman ( when usually it is the man who has the seed) and the seed of the serpent. The word seed for the serpent is the same as woman, zera.

Mitzvahs to not mix like kind with unlike kind

Not to sow different kinds of seed in one field, Lev 19:19
Not to sow grain or vegetables in a vineyard Deut 22:9
Not to cross breed animals of different species – Lev 19:19
Not to work with two different animals together Detu 22:10
Not to wear a mixture of wool and linen Deut 22:11

And Yeshua spoke of the Tares as we discussed. In Matt 13:35 we are told that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet saying, I will open my mouth in parables, I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. He spoke of the tares being sown by the enemy in the same field that the master had sown the good seed, these things were secret, that he shared now that he had come.
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MMkgc

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PostSubject: Re: PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind   PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind EmptyMon Oct 22, 2007 2:20 pm

Book Review

One reason many people fail or refuse to consider the possibility that angels interbred with human women before the Great Flood is that they assume angels are not sexual beings. Part of this comes from contemporary as well as medieval art which paints angels as being female in nature. As we'll see later in this book, the exact opposite is the case: All angels are referred to as being males in the Bible (with one small exception which will also be noted). Angels are called sons of God because they are male.

But does this mean they are capable of actually having intercourse with human women?

The explanation that makes the most sense is that since celestial beings are deathless, there is no need for procreation. Thus, there is no need for a marriage and children. Following the resurrection, the same will be true of mankind.

The Nephilim that were produced by the angel/mankind marriage were much different from either of their parents. This, too, went against God's plan for the Earth in which each animal and human being was to reproduce "after its own kind."This is perhaps the best demonstration that the parents of these creatures were not simply descendants of Cain and Seth. Had they been, they would have produced human offspring, rather than the Nephilim.

As we'll see later in this book, God created His angels long before he formed the Earth. Some of these angels fell from Grace with Satan, aligning themselves with the devil to do evil. These have become known as fallen angels or devils, with the dead spirits of the Nephilim most likely becoming what are commonly known as evil spirits and demons. (It is easy to confuse these beings since angels sometimes operate on the spiritual realm. However, it appears that in cases of demon possession or similar activities, the spiritual being is actually that of a Nephilim whose body has been destroyed.) this book has many good points to back it up, check it out http://www.stevequayle.com/books/Angels.chpt1.3.html
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polonois

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PostSubject: fallen Angels part 1   PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind EmptyTue Oct 23, 2007 3:22 pm

GENESIS 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose. 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years." 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown. (NKJV)
There has been much speculation about who these "sons of God" mentioned in the 6th chapter of Genesis were. Three basic interpretations of this passage have been advanced.

The first, and oldest, belief is that "the sons of God" were fallen angels who consorted with human women, producing giant offspring called nephilim (Heb. נפלים). This view was widely held in the world of the 1st century CE, and was supported by Flavius Josephus, Philo, Eusebius and many of the "Ante-Nicene Fathers," including Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Athenagoras and Commodianus.

The second view is one which was first suggested by Julius Africanus and later advocated by Saint Augustine, the Catholic Bishop of Hippo. Augustine rejected the concept of the fallen host having committed fornication with women. In his early 5th century book The City of God, he promoted the theory that "the sons of God" simply referred to the genealogical line of Seth, who were committed to preserving the true worship of God. He interpreted Genesis 6 to mean that the male offspring of Adam through Seth were "the sons of God," and the female offspring of Adam through Cain were "the daughters of men." He wrote that the problem was that the family of Seth had interbred with the family of Cain, intermingling the bloodlines and corrupting the pure religion. This view has become the dominant one among most modern biblical scholars.

The third view is that "the sons of God" were the sons of pre-Flood rulers or magistrates. This view took hold in rabbinic Judaism after Rabbi Simeon ben Yochai pronounced a curse in the 2nd century CE upon those Jews who believed the common teaching that the angels were responsible for the nephilim. This interpretation was advocated by two of the most respected Jewish sages of the Middle Ages, Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki (Rashi) and Rabbi Moshe ben Nachman (Nachmanides), and became the standard explanation of rabbinic Judaism. However, it is not widely accepted by modern scholars.

To determine who these "sons of God" were, we'll first examine what various outside sources have to say about this topic. Then we'll examine the ultimate authority, the Bible, to see its position.

Let's start with a quotation and footnote from William Whitson's translation of the respected 1st-century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus' history of the Jewish people:

Now this posterity of Seth continued to esteem God as the Lord of the universe, and to have an entire regard to virtue, for seven generations; but in process of time they were perverted, and forsook the practices of their forefathers, and did neither pay those honors to God which were appointed to them, nor had they any concern to do justice towards men. But for what degree of zeal they had formerly shown for virtue, they now showed by their actions a double degree of wickedness; whereby they made God to be their enemy, for many angels* of God accompanied with women and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, that these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians called giants. But Noah was very uneasy at what they did; and, being displeased at their conduct, persuaded them to change their dispositions and their acts for the better; but, seeing that they did not yield to him, but were slaves to their wicked pleasures, he was afraid they would kill him, together with his wife and children, and those they had married; so he departed out of that land. (p. 32, bk. 1, ch. 3, §§72-74, The Antiquities of the Jews, translated by William Whitson)
* This notion, that the fallen angels were, in some sense the fathers of the old giants, was the constant opinion of antiquity.

As you can see, Josephus believed and recorded that "the sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 were fallen angels. As Whitson's footnote acknowledges, this belief was standard in the ancient world.

Another well-known 1st-century Jewish writer, Philo of Alexandria, shared Josephus' views on this topic. In his work "On the Giants," Philo wrote:

"And when the angels of God saw the daughters of men that they were beautiful, they took unto themselves wives of all them whom they chose." Those beings, whom other philosophers call demons, Moses usually calls angels . . . (p. 152, The Works of Philo, "On the Giants," translated by C.D. Yonge)
The Book of Enoch (also called I Enoch) is a collection of pseudepigraphic writings by various authors which dates to the 1st or 2nd century BCE. This book was well-known by the early church; in fact, Jude, the brother of Jesus, quoted Enoch 1:9 in verses 14 and 15 of his epistle. Obviously Jude felt that the Book of Enoch he had access to in the 1st century was trustworthy. This work, which survived to our day against great odds, deals extensively with the fall of the angels. It was viewed favorably by some early "Christian" writers also (Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and others). However, it was never universally accepted as inspired Scripture. Below is a selection from the Book of Enoch which records the sin of the angelic "watchers":

ENOCH 6:1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon . . . (From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, translated by R.H. Charles)
A similar passage is also found in the pseudepigraphic Book of Jubilees:

JUBILEES 5:1 And it came to pass when the children of men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the angels of God saw them on a certain year of this jubilee, that they were beautiful to look upon; and they took themselves wives of all whom they 2 chose, and they bare unto them sons and they were giants. And lawlessness increased on the earth and all flesh corrupted its way, alike men and cattle and beasts and birds and everything that walks on the earth – all of them corrupted their ways and their orders, and they began to devour each other, and lawlessness increased on the earth and every imagination of the thoughts of all men 3 (was) thus evil continually . . . (From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, translated by R.H. Charles)
The Genesis Apocryphon, one of the texts uncovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls, also contains references to the angels interbreeding with human women. In this text, a conversation between Lamech, the father of Noah, and his wife Bathenosh is detailed. Lamech questions his wife because he thinks that the conception of Noah was due to either an angel or one of their offspring, a nephilim. The Book of Enoch, the Book of Jubilees, and the Genesis Apocryphon all clearly show that the common understanding at the time of Christ was that the fallen host had committed fornication with women in the period before the Flood.

As stated previously, many early Christian writers accepted the story told in Enoch as fact. Let's examine the writings of two of them, beginning with Justin Martyr, who lived from 110 CE to 165 CE. Here is what he had to say in chapter 5 of his Second Apology, entitled ""How the Angels Transgressed":

God, when He had made the whole world, and subjected things earthly to man, and arranged the heavenly elements for the increase of fruits and rotation of the seasons, and appointed this divine law – for these things also He evidently made for man – committed the care of men and of all things under heaven to angels whom He appointed over them. But the angels transgressed this appointment, and were captivated by love of women, and begat children who are those that are called demons; and besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, and partly by fears and punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices, and incense, and libations, of which things they stood in need after they enslaved by lustful passions; and among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate needs, and all wickedness. . . . (p. 363, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers)
Now let's examine chapter 3, "The Worship of Demons," from The Instructions of Commodianus, a North-African bishop who lived about 240 CE:

When Almighty God, to beautify the nature of the world, willed that that earth should be visited by angels, when they were sent down they despised His laws. Such was the beauty of women, that it turned them aside; so that, being contaminated, they could not return to heaven. Rebels from God, they uttered words against Him. Then the Highest uttered His judgment against them; and from their seed giants are said to have been born. By them arts were made known in the earth, and they taught the dyeing of wool, and everything which is done; and to them, when they died, men erected images. But the Almighty, because they were of an evil seed, did not approve that, when dead, they should be brought back from death. Whence wandering they now subvert many bodies, and it is such as these especially that ye this day worship and pray to as gods. (p. 435, vol. 4, The Ante-Nicene Fathers)
The idea that the nephilim or giants were the offspring of the fallen host and human females was not unique to Judaism. This understanding was likely behind the Greek, Roman, and Egyptian mythologies, as well as those of India and the near east. All these beliefs resulted not as mere inventions of fertile human imagination, but as a corruption of antediluvian truths which were distorted as their origin was forgotten over time.

Take, for example, the legend of the Titans. In Greek mythology, the Titans were a family of giant gods who were the offspring of Uranus (heaven) and Gaea (earth). The most famous of the Titans was Cronus, who killed his father. Cronus later led the Titans in their losing war against Zeus and the Olympian gods. After their defeat, the Titans were imprisoned in a section of the underworld called Tartarus.

In his second epistle, the apostle Peter uses part of this Greek myth to explain the fate of some of the fallen angels. He states that for their sins, these angels had been tartarosas, which The NKJV Greek English Interlinear New Testament translates literally as "confining them to Tartarus" (also known in the Bible as "the Abyss").

II PETER 2:4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarosas] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; (NKJV)
This is the same Tartarus where Greek mythology says the Titans were imprisoned. It's highly unlikely that Peter would have used such an analogy if this pagan legend wasn't based on at least some grain of truth which his readers would have knowledge of. The idea that evil angels mated with human women and had offspring (the nephilim) appears far-fetched to us in this modern era, but it seems to have been widely accepted as fact in the ancient world.

As we've seen above, the word translated "giants" in Genesis 6:4 is nephilim. Let's look at what The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia has to say about the possible origins of this Hebrew word:

The etymology of nepilim is uncertain, the following explanations have been advanced with mixed reception. First, it may derive from the niphal of the verb pala, meaning "be extraordinary," i.e., "extraordinary men." Second, it may be derived from the verb napal, "fall," in one of the following senses: (1) the "fallen ones" – from heaven, i.e., supernatural beings; (2) morally "fallen men"; (3) "those who fall upon," in the sense of invaders or hostile, violent men; (4) "those who fell by" the sword (cf. Ezk. 32:20f.); (5) "unnaturally begotten men" or bastards (from cf. nepel, "abortion" or "miscarriage"). (pp. 518-519, vol. 3)
The Greek version of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, renders the Hebrew term nephilim as gigantes. This word, which literally means "earth-born" or the "sons of Gaia," refers to a savage race destroyed by the gods in Greek mythology. The ancient writings indicate that the nephilim were physically quite large; they were "giants."

From the sources we've just examined, it's readily apparent that the general understanding of Genesis 6:1-4 at the time of Christ was that the angels had sinned by committing fornication with human women. But does the Bible support this theory?

First, let's look at all of the Old Testament references to "sons of God." This phrase is translated from the Hebrew beney 'elohim (בני אלהים), beney ha'elohim (בני האלהים), and beney 'elim (בני אלים):

.
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polonois

polonois


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PostSubject: fallen Angels part 2   PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind EmptyTue Oct 23, 2007 3:25 pm

GENESIS 6:1 When men began to increase on earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the divine beings [beney ha'elohim] saw how beautiful the daughters of men were and took wives from among those that pleased them. 3 The LORD said, "My breath shall not abide in man forever, since he too is flesh; let the days allowed him be one hundred and twenty years." 4 It was then, and later too, that the Nephilim appeared on earth when the divine beings [beney ha'elohim] cohabited with the daughters of men, who bore them offspring. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown. (Tanakh, the new Jewish Publication Society translation according to the traditional Hebrew text)
DEUTERONOMY 32:8 When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of men, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God [beney 'elohim]. (RSV)
JOB 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God [beney ha'elohim] came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan also came among them. (NKJV)
JOB 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God [beney ha'elohim] came to present themselves before the LORD and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. (NKJV)
JOB 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5 Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6 To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7 when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God [beney 'elohim] shouted for joy? (NKJV)
PSALM 29:1 O give the LORD you sons of God [beney 'elim], give the LORD glory and power; 2 give the LORD the glory of His name. Adore the LORD in His holy court. (The Psalms: A New Translation)
PSALM 89:5 The heavens proclaim Your wonders, O LORD; the assembly of Your holy ones proclaims Your truth. 6 For who in the skies can compare with the LORD or who is like the LORD among the sons of God [beney 'elim]? (The Psalms: A New Translation)
As you can see, each reference above is to angels. There are no instances in the Old Testament where the phrase "sons of God" refers to men. Let's see what E.W. Bullinger has to say about these "sons of God" in Appendix 23 to The Companion Bible:
"The Sons of God" in Gen. 6.2, 4.
It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God." For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh." God is spirit and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3.6). Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3.38. Those "in Christ" having the "new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2 Cor. 5.17; Eph. 2.10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1.13; Rom. 8.14, 15; 1 John 3.1).

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament. Job 1.6; 2.1; 38.7; Ps. 29.1; 89.6; Dan. 3.25 (no art.). We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6.4 in any other sense. Moreover in Gen. 6.2 the Sept. renders it "angels". (pp. 26, 27, Companion Bible Appendixes)

Now let's look at Genesis 6:9, which discusses Noah's genealogy. This Scripture is further proof that fallen angels had interbred with humans.
GENESIS 6:9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect [tamim] in his generations. Noah walked with God. (NKJV)
In Genesis 6:9, the Hebrew word tamim, here translated "perfect," means "physically without blemish." As the first sentence makes clear, it's referring to the genealogy of Noah; it does not refer to moral perfection. Below is what Appendix 26 of The Companion Bible has to say about this word as used in verse 9 of Genesis 6:
The Heb. word tamim means without blemish, and is the technical word for bodily and physical perfection, and, not moral. Hence it is used of animals of sacrificial purity . It is rendered without blemish in Ex. 12.5; 29.1; Lev. 1.3, 10; 3.1, 6; 4.3, 23, 28, 32; 5.12, 18; 6.6; 9.2, 3; 14.10; 22.19; 23.12, 18; Num. 6.14; 28.19, 31; 29.2, 8, 13, 20, 23, 29, 32, 36; Ezek. 43.22, 23, 25; 45.18, 23; 46.4, 6, 13.
Without spot: Num. 19.2; 28.3, 9, 11; 29.17, 26.

Undefiled: Ps. 119.1.

This shows that Gen. 6.9 does not speak of Noah's moral perfection . . . (p. 28, Companion Bible Appendixes)

Now let's examine what Jude said about the fallen angels in the New Testament:

JUDE 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (KJV)
Because of the punctuation of verse 7, this Scripture appears to say that Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as the cities around them, gave themselves over to sexual immorality. However, the underlying Greek text does not support this interpretation. Kenneth Wuest writes of verse 7:

This verse begins with hos, an adverb of comparison having meanings of "in the same manner as, after the fashion of, as, just as." Here it introduces a comparison showing a likeness between the angels of verse 6 and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha of this verse. But the likeness between them lies deeper than the fact that both were guilty of committing sin. It extends to the fact that both were guilty of the same identical sin. The punctuation of the A.V. [KJV] is misleading, as an examination of Greek text discloses.
The A.V. punctuation gives the reader the impression that Sodom and Gomorrha committed fornication and that the cities about them committed fornication in like manner to the two cities named. . . . The words "in like manner" are related to the verbal forms, "giving themselves over to fornication" and "going after strange flesh." In addition to all this, the Greek text has toutois, "to these." Thus, the translation should read, "just as Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them, in like manner to these, having given themselves over to fornication and having gone after strange flesh." The sense of the entire passage (vv.6, 7) is that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha and the cities about them, in like manner to these (the angels), have given themselves over to fornication and have gone after strange flesh. That means that the sin of the fallen angels was fornication. (pp. 241-242, vol. II, Word Studies in the Greek New Testament)

The underlying Greek text indicates that the fallen angels left their own domain and indulged in sexual immorality, going after "strange," or "other" flesh. The KJV obscures this fact, probably because the view that the fallen angels were "the sons of God" spoken of in Genesis 6:2, 4 was not accepted when it was translated in 1611. However, some translations do more clearly show the meaning of this passage. The New English Bible better presents what Jude was saying:

JUDE 6 Remember too the angels, how some of them were not content to keep the dominion given to them but abandoned their proper home; and God has reserved them for judgement on the great Day, bound beneath the darkness in everlasting chains. 7 Remember Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighbouring towns; like the angels, they committed fornication and followed unnatural lusts; and they paid the penalty in eternal fire, an example for all to see. (NEB)
It's clear that Jude wrote of the fornication of the angels as a fact. In verse 7 of his epistle, he compares the sexual wickedness in Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding cities to the sin of the angels.

The nature of the angels' fall is also clearly stated in Jude 6, where it is said that they left their own "abode" (Gr. oiketerion). This word occurs in the New Testament only here and in II Corinthians 5:2, where it is used of the spiritual body of a resurrected saint.

II CORINTHIANS 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation [oiketerion] which is from heaven, (NKJV)
There is a great deal revealed in the Bible about angels. Angels could and did assume human form and even eat men's food (Gen. 18-19). Although the Bible doesn't tell us how, Jude 6 shows that some angels left their proper abode (their spiritual bodies) and took on fleshly bodies so as to marry and produce offspring by the daughters of men.

Although the angels committed sexual sins and corrupted the human lineage to some extent, they did something else that threatened to foil God's plan for humanity. Let's go back to 1 Enoch to see what these fallen angels did that affected the human race enormously:

1 ENOCH 8:1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . . (From The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament, translated by R.H. Charles)
As the text above shows, the angels brought with them knowledge which humanity did not have beforehand. This information led to a rapid advance in the knowledge base of the antediluvian society, including the invention of advanced methods of waging warfare. In the NKJV translation of Genesis 6:4, the nephilim are called "mighty men who were of old, men of renown;" however, the NRSV translates that same phrase as "heroes that were of old, warriors of renown."

Genesis 6:11 shows that the earth was filled with violence; this is very likely the direct result of the nephilim, who apparently were mighty warriors. If the ancient legends are indeed based in fact, as they appear to be, these angelic offspring were superhuman in size and great in strength. There is also an indication from the ancient text known as the Book of Jasher that this corruption of bloodlines extended to the animals also.

JASHER 4:18 And their judges and rulers went to the daughters of men and took their wives by force from their husbands according to their choice, and the sons of men in those days took from the cattle of the earth, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and taught the mixture of animals of one species with the other, in order therewith to provoke the Lord; and God saw the whole earth and it was corrupt, for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon earth, all men and all animals. 19 And the Lord said, I will blot out man that I created from the face of the earth, yea from man to the birds of the air, together with cattle and beasts that are in the field . . .(From The Book of Jasher, published by J.H. Parry & Company, 1887)
The Book of Jasher is mentioned twice in the Bible (Jos. 10:13; II Sam. 1:18). While it's evident the copy of this book that has survived to our time has been corrupted to some extent, the Scriptures seem to confirm the information contained in this section of Jasher:

GENESIS 6:7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." (NKJV)
It appears likely that the objectives of the Flood were the destruction of the polluted human and animal bloodlines and the eradication of the forbidden knowledge that humanity had learned from the fallen host.

There is one other New Testament passage which hints at the sin of the angels before the Flood. It is an enigmatic scripture found in Paul's first letter to the Corinthian church.

I CORINTHIANS 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. (NKJV)
In I Corinthians 11, Paul states the position of women in relation to men and says that the symbol of authority on a woman's head is needed "because of the angels." Without an understanding of what took place anciently between the fallen host and women, this verse is cryptic at best.
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polonois

polonois


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PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind Empty
PostSubject: Fallen Angels Final Part   PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind EmptyTue Oct 23, 2007 3:26 pm

There is opposition to the view that the fallen angels are the "sons of God" referred to in Genesis 6. Some cite Matthew 22:29-30 and Mark 12:24-25 as objections, saying that these Scriptures clearly teach that angels do not marry.

MATTHEW 22:29 Jesus answered and said to them [the Sadducees], "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven." (NKJV)
MARK 12:24 Jesus answered and said to them, "Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25 For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (NKJV)

First, these verses do not state whether angels can marry or procreate. Here Christ was referring only to the way things will be after the first resurrection of the dead. Additionally, the angels in heaven who did not sin are the example cited, not the angels confined to Tartarus because they sinned by marrying humans and producing offspring. To get a better perspective of what Christ was saying, let's look at the parallel account of this conversation in Luke's Gospel.
LUKE 20:34 And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection." (NKJV)
Christ's primary purpose in his answer was to affirm the reality of the resurrection to these questioning Sadducees, who did not believe that there would be a resurrection. As you can clearly see from Luke's account of this confrontation, Christ is making two points about the age to come: (1) Resurrected humans will not marry, and (2) resurrected humans will be given eternal life, which the holy angels now have. Interpreting these Scriptures to mean that angels have never been able to marry or procreate reads more into them than was intended by Jesus.

Some also object by saying that Genesis 6:4 shows that there were nephilim on the earth before "the sons of God" came in to "the daughters of men" and also afterward; therefore, these giants cannot be the offspring of this union. Does the phrase "in those days, and also afterward" mean that the nephilim were present before the the sons of God cohabited with the daughters of men?

"In those days" plainly means the time after the "sons of God" had come down to earth; the fact that they had taken wives is disclosed in Genesis 6:2. In chronological sequence, the events of Genesis 6 follow Genesis 4. Genesis 5 is simply an inset into the story flow. "Afterward" specifies after the Flood, when we see another instance of giants appearing, this time in the land of Canaan which the Israelites were to inherit (Num. 13:33). Satan once again tried to thwart God's plan by using these savage hybrids to occupy the land of Canaan and keep Abraham's offspring out. Obviously none of the nephilim survived the Flood.

These giants are often mentioned in the early books of the Old Testament until the last of them were finally killed off. The word nephilim only appears twice in the Old Testament (Gen 6:4; Num. 13:33), but these giants are also referred to as gibbor (Gen 6:4; Num. 13:33; Job 16:14) and rephaim when they reappear in a more limited fashion after the Flood (Gen. 14:5; 15:20; Deu. 2:11, 20; 3:11, 13; Jos. 12:4; 13:12; 15:8; 17:15; 18:16; II Sam. 5:18, 22; 21:16, 18, 20, 22; 23:13; I Chr. 11:15; 14:9; 20:4, 6, 8; Isa. 17:5; 26:14). They were known by the proper names of Rephaim, Zuzim, Emim, Horites, Anakim, Zamzummim, and Avim.

CONCLUSION
As shown above, the evidence that "the sons of God" mentioned in Genesis 6 are fallen angels is substantial. By their sexual immorality, these angels produced offspring which were strong and violent. The concept of a race of giants which resulted from the union of gods and humans is virtually universal in the world's early civilizations.

The original intent of the angels may have only been to satisfy their forbidden lust. Yet the knowledge they brought with them and taught mankind caused society to develop at a more rapid technological pace than God had intended. This societal development was not positive, and it gave rise to a very violent society, one in which the nephilim apparently played a large role. God was forced to restrain in the Abyss the wicked angels that produced the nephilim, and cleanse the earth of them and the violence they brought with the great Flood
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MMkgc

MMkgc


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PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind Empty
PostSubject: Re: PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind   PaRSHA Noach - cause of Flood Angels and mankind EmptySat Oct 27, 2007 12:55 pm

Something else that is interesting to note ( and thank you polonois for presenting that in such a succint fashion) is in Genesis 4 where Kayin kills his brother. When the L-RD tells him that now he will be a fugitive wandering the earth, Kayins response is startling.

"My punishment is greater than I can bear, you are banning me today from the land and from your presence ."

Most concentrate on him having to leave G-ds presence, but I want to concentrate on the land part. He says "you are banning me from the land" what does that mean?

We can understand this by his next words:
"I will be a fugitive wandering the earth and whoever finds me will kill me."

This begs the question, who is Kayin afraid of? He must not be imagining things as the L-RD is well aware and states that anyone that kills Kayin will receive vengeance sevenfold, and he put a sign upon Kayin ( some believe this to be the ancient letter Tau, which looked like a cross) so that no one that found him would kill him. This sign must have been pretty powerful, and those who saw it would have to have understanding as to what this meant.

So who were these that would kill him, and why? There are those that say these were other children of Adam and Chavah, that they would try to revenge their brothers murder, as is practiced in the middle east. But I think they could be someone else. We aren't told the age of Kayin and Abel when this happened but we know that it had to happen within a period of 130 years as Seth replaced Abel ( Gen 4:26), but in the interim Adam could have had daughters and the b'nei Elohim could have started their infiltration of mankind all the way back at this point. The offspring could be the men of old, of renown, and also they, as we see in Gen 6 the earth was full of violence ( or violent men).

Kayin wasn't afraid for being killed because of what he did to his brother, but he was afraid of leaving the land where he lived in relative protection, with his family.

In Gen 4:16 it reads that Kayin left the presence of G-d and lived at the east of Eden. So when Adam and Chavah were 'kicked' out of the garden, they didn't go far, they were probably still in the same place, yet on a different plane in time. This is where G-d resided on earth and I believe is where Jerusalem is today, this is his holy mountain, and where he put his name. Protection was given there because of his presence, but leaving there would put Kayin outside that protection.

We see also in Gen 4: 17 that Kayin built a city. A city in Biblical terms is defined as a walled enclosure where people habitate. The walls were for protection. This could very well be like the city of Jericho. The walls were built to keep them from attack, but from whom? This may have been the protection Kayin needed from those he was afraid would kill him.
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